Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D. is an assistant professor and director of the newly created music therapy program at Rowan University in Glassboro, NJ.
Enjoying both research and teaching, Dr. Hunt has practiced music therapy since 1997. As director of the newly created music therapy at Rowan, she immerses herself in bringing best practices to her students, so that they will build careers in this growing field.
Beth Dombkowski:
Hello. My name is Beth Dombkowski and I'm coming to you from the office of admissions at Rowan University in Glassboro, New Jersey. Welcome to Rowan Confidential. I am here today with Dr. Andrea McGraw Hunt. Welcome.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Hi.
Beth Dombkowski:
Thank you for joining us.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Good to be here.
Beth Dombkowski:
Dr. Hunt is assistant professor and director of the music therapy program at Rowan University. She's practiced music therapy since 1997 with clients in various settings including skilled nursing, inpatient psychiatric, and residential drug and alcohol rehabilitation, in addition to private practice in the Bonny Method of Guided Imagery and Music. Dr. Hunt has presented both nationally and internationally on her research and clinical practice, particularly on the interface of the neuroscience and music therapy fields. Sounds very interesting.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Thanks.
Beth Dombkowski:
So, Dr. Hunt, what is your passion? What wakes you up in the morning?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Well, I think that last part, that research component is really fascinating to me. So, I love to see how the field is growing and changing. And we're just learning something every day about the brain and music. So, that fascinates me and I kind of always can't wait to get digging into the research.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And, related to that, I love teaching too. So, I care a lot about students and I want to see them grow and become just as fascinated too by what they're learning. So, my hope too is to help them become good researchers and to help grow the field as well. So, yeah. I love people and I love interacting.
Beth Dombkowski:
So, let me ask you see this, for people out there who are listening who might not be familiar with music therapy, what is it?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Every music therapist has to answer that question. Your elevator speech.
Beth Dombkowski:
Yes.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, I mean, you could probably guess you're using music to help people in some way. So, but it's not just putting on headphones and listening to music. That's not music therapy.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
There's a human relationship involved. And, if you think about it, music exists because people are trying to express something to another human being. And often, the meaning of music is because we've assigned meaning and symbol to music in song, or orchestral scores, or movie scores, or whatever. So, music therapy is about being in relationship with another person to help the client get what they need. Maybe they have like a wellness goal, they just want to feel more empowered in their daily life. Or maybe there's like a really concrete rehabilitation goal, like they've had a stroke and they want to work on their stride and get it back. Or maybe it's even someone in a nursing home who has memory loss and they just need a better quality of life. So, music can help them connect to the part of themselves that still feels themself. Right? That they've got memories, they've got relationships, and the music brings them to a place that makes them feel safe and healthy again. So, music does that because we have a human connection. So, you need a music therapist.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
You need music.
Beth Dombkowski:
Music, that would be helpful.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And it's related to some kind of clinical relationship. Right? So, you've agreed to work together in music on something.
Beth Dombkowski:
So, did you set out to be a music therapist? Or is this something that you kind of backed into? How did it go? Did you know what this was when you started?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Kind of.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, I was a good musician in high school. I was very serious about... I studied flute very seriously.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And I also was really good at science. I was taking advanced physics in high school. And I was fascinated with space, and cosmology, and stuff like that. So, I thought I'll be a double major in flute performance and physics.
Beth Dombkowski:
Oh, that sounds like an interesting combination.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
I had no idea what I was going to do with that.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And then, I'm screening all the brochures coming in my mailbox, different universities, looking at all the major listings. Okay. Where could I do those two crazy things together? And tripped over music therapy as a major. I was like, oh, well what's that? So, I went to my high school library. There was no internet, of course, then.
Beth Dombkowski:
Yes.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And I learned there was a career. It was an actual thing. I didn't know much about it still.
Beth Dombkowski:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, basically I chose my university, I went to Michigan State for undergrad.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Because it was big enough to have all three of those things, so flute performance, physics, and music therapy. And I said, I'll do music therapy. And, if I don't like it-
Beth Dombkowski:
You can switch to something else.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
I can switch to something else. It's a big enough school, a lot of options. And with the music too, it was nice because I could also even just double major in flute performance and music.
Beth Dombkowski:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
As I got into it, it was like the performance world was not for me because it's a very strict musical life.
Beth Dombkowski:
Sure.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
You have to really adhere to very strict parameters. And I was really interested in different kinds of folk music and pop music. So, I enjoyed in the music therapy coursework I could do other things and expand my repertoire. So, I gave up on the performance. I didn't like my music therapy training though in other respects. So I wasn't sure I was going to stick to it, even when I graduated.
Beth Dombkowski:
Really?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
No.
Beth Dombkowski:
So what-
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
It was a very behavioral program. So, in a sense, you're training people by using music as a reward.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Which in certain situations is appropriate. But I was really more interested in a mental health and I didn't see how that was very beneficial in a mental health situation. It wasn't until my internship, I'm like, I'll finish this and maybe I'll go to grad school for something else. And I went to an internship at a state psychiatric hospital in Maryland. And these are people with serious chronic mental illness. They're probably there the rest of their lives.
Beth Dombkowski:
Oh my goodness.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
There's no other place for them to go when they wind up in a place like that. People who committed murder or... so they've been convicted in the sense, but they're not guilty by reason of insanity or they have to get treatment instead of go to prison for the rest of their lives. Because it's not safe for them to be in the community.
Beth Dombkowski:
Oh my goodness. Yeah.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
But there was something about making music with them that connected them to the real human experience of themselves.
Beth Dombkowski:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, they weren't just a patient in a state psychiatric hospital. They were George, or Fred, or Mary. And it was really amazing to see how they could come to life and free themselves a bit of being in that institution and still grow, and still learn, and be more of themselves by being creative. And I also worked with art therapists, dance movement therapist, other creative arts therapists. And that was great to see how those media helped them as well. So, I was like, oh. Well, maybe I'll stick with this thing a little while.
Beth Dombkowski:
So, then you went to grad school?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Sort of. I got my first job in Philadelphia.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And I burned out of the nursing home job after a year and a half, cause that was a really stressful gig. I was the only music therapist for a 650 bed facility.
Beth Dombkowski:
Oh my goodness.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And I was responsible for 60 of them, but mostly in bed all the time. So, it's nothing but visiting people in their rooms. And it was very overwhelming. But up the road there was an opening at a psychiatric hospital. So, because I really loved mental health, I applied there. And that was a team of creative arts therapists. So, again, dance movement, therapist, art therapist, drama therapy, and they were doing amazing work in this nonprofit community hospital. There's also drug and alcohol rehab there. So, that was really like where I really, I think, I found myself as a clinician. And they had master's level training. So, because I could see what they were doing and I saw there was much more than what I got my undergrad.
Beth Dombkowski:
Was it? Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
I went to Temple for grad school.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And it was really unbelievable. I was like, oh, there's so much more. And, because I got maybe a little addicted to that, I went on to my PhD.
Beth Dombkowski:
It is addictive, isn't it?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yes, a little. The knowledge was fascinating. So, but even then, I remember early on, colleagues said, you should do the PhD program. And I was like, but I don't want to teach. I want to be a clinician. I want to go onto this. But then, once I saw research and I saw like those options, I was like, oh, okay.
Beth Dombkowski:
That's what it's all about.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
That's what I really want. Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Beth Dombkowski:
So, what's your role here at Rowan?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, I'm the only full time faculty member for the program, the music therapy program. And my job was to open the program.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, it's a brand new major at Rowan. We just finished our first year mostly with just students who were already here on campus who changed major to music therapy.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, this fall we've brought in people from the first admission cycle who auditioned into the program.
Beth Dombkowski:
Excellent.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, we now have 18 majors.
Beth Dombkowski:
Oh. That's a nice number for a new program.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yeah.
Beth Dombkowski:
Wow.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yeah. It's awesome.
Beth Dombkowski:
That's great.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Beth Dombkowski:
So, what is special about this program, rather than other programs in music therapy?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, particularly for the undergrad situation, Rowan, because it's so busy and bustling and the music department is so full and vibrant, we've set up a hybrid model for most of the courses because we're also welcoming people who are coming back for a second career. They're coming here as teachers or psychologists and they want to become music therapists. They've got day jobs.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, we set up online courses that are high hybrid with, so we meet a couple times a semester for like intensive classes all day for a whole weekend. And then, in the evenings, we have our clinical musicianship classes, where they work on piano, and guitar, and other instruments. So, that's pretty different. You won't see that in any other undergrad situation in the area or most other programs in the country, I would say. But what's neat too about our program is, for example, we have access to the early childhood demonstration center in James Hall.
Beth Dombkowski:
Yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, we go over there and our students get to practice creating music experiences with real life children.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
I never had access like that when I was in my undergrad.
Beth Dombkowski:
In your undergrad?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, it's nice. Yeah. You're not just practicing on each other and role playing. You can actually work with some kids. I mean, they're typically developing kids, but even just understanding childhood development and how to set up music experiences successfully, that's really helpful before they get out into real clinical situations. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Beth Dombkowski:
So, the program started last year.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Beth Dombkowski:
You have your first group of students who actually applied for it this year. So, where do you see your students going after they graduate? Do you have partnerships with different organizations? What would a music therapy student do?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, we have a lot of relationships with clinicians in South Jersey and Philadelphia. I mean, I've been teaching in the area for the last five years and I've been working in the area for about 20. So, I know a lot of folks. And, before they even get to graduation, they're doing clinical training, 200 hours in practicum and then a thousand hours in residency.
Beth Dombkowski:
That's a lot.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
It's a lot of field training.
Beth Dombkowski:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yeah. So, through that, they're going to develop a lot of clinical relationships. And there's a wide variety of training sites. So, there's more school-based kind of thing, medical, so it could be like CHOP, or Voorhees Pediatric, or some kind of pediatric center.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And then, there's geriatrics, of course, memory care, dementia, nursing home or neuro rehabilitation. And also mental health, drug and alcohol rehab or inpatient mental health. So, we try to give us varied an experience within the program as possible.
Beth Dombkowski:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And then, students are free to apply to any job that only requires a bachelor's degree. Once they finish all that coursework and the clinical training, they're eligible to sit for a national certification exam.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, that credential is recognized nationwide. So, they can apply to any job in the country they want.
Beth Dombkowski:
So, you can definitely work with a bachelor's degree.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yeah. Music therapy is a bachelor's entry profession.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Now, there are some fields like mental health or some children's hospital settings that prefer a master's degree.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, that's my goal longterm with the program here is to build a master's program to make us competitive.
Beth Dombkowski:
Oh, fantastic.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Beth Dombkowski:
So, you mentioned earlier your interest in research.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yeah.
Beth Dombkowski:
And that was what really helped you to finish that PhD.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Beth Dombkowski:
What is your area?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, I've come to specialize in like neuroscience and music therapy. So, my dissertation, we worked with electroencephalograms, so like the electrodes you place on your head, and looking at surface brainwaves in response to different kinds of music experiences. So, I've been working on that Bonny Method of Guided Imagery and music is where you listen to music and you imagine scenes and interact with important people to you or feelings that come up because of the music. So, I looked at brain responses to that.
Beth Dombkowski:
Interesting.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Also the linkage to the music. And then, I'm also finishing an article now about brain responses to different kinds of music interventions for pain, for chronic pain.
Beth Dombkowski:
Oh, very interesting. Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yeah. So, and could be listening to like commercial music that you might find on Spotify or something versus a music therapist working with you to create music or improvise music that actually sounds and feels like your pain experience. Some pain is sharp and jarring, and some pain is kind of dull and throbbing. So, you use sounds to kind of resonate with that pain and almost match it, really match it, and then shift it to positive music that's more comforting. So, that's a method called entrainment developed by one of my mentors at Temple, Cheryl Dileo. So, that's a really interactive kind of music therapy intervention versus a more receptive sit back, listen in a relaxed state to like a re recording with like jazz sounds and birds chirping or something. So, it turns out the brain responds very differently to those kinds of interventions. And they're both effective. So, now we have to figure out like what does it mean? Like there's some people who might prefer just listening to some recorded music. And there's some people who would really benefit from that other person working with them through the pain, so.
Beth Dombkowski:
So, do you... I have to ask.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yeah.
Beth Dombkowski:
Because we're talking about music, but we haven't actually talked about the music part of it. We're talking about the therapy part.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yeah.
Beth Dombkowski:
If I were to go into your car, what would I hear? What are you listening to right now?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Oh, it depends on the mood. So, I actually play in an Indian Cureton band, if that makes sense.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, it's devotional music that involves a lot of call and response. So, if I'm feeling really busy and stressed out, I'll put some of that on. And so, and I'll actually sing along to kind of like, okay, we got this, like everything is cool. So, singing back like Sanskrit to the guy on my stereo. But I also love like blues, and rock, and stuff, the Beach Boys, and folk music, and sometimes orchestral stuff. So, like the Bonny Method of Guided Imagery and Music is a lot of like classical orchestral, some operatic vocal stuff.
Beth Dombkowski:
Right.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, I listen to almost everything. Not a big fan of country, but my husband is trying to convert me, so.
Beth Dombkowski:
Oh, okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And we go to a lot of shows, so.
Beth Dombkowski:
You do?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yeah.
Beth Dombkowski:
I guess that's a good thing about Rowan. We're so close to Philly. We're so close to-
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yeah.
Beth Dombkowski:
Yeah.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yeah. There's just so much going on. It's fantastic. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Beth Dombkowski:
So, when you're talking to students about this, do you find that you're attracting students that are more interested in the music side or the psychology side?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
I think they, and this is what I would hope for, I'm trying to attract students who are interested in the people side.
Beth Dombkowski:
Oh, that's very good. Yeah.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
That human connection.
Beth Dombkowski:
Yes. Because they're going to be working with people.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And tell them that upfront. Like, if you're going into this field, you have to love people in all their forms, in all their moods. You don't go into this profession expecting a Pat on the back every day. People are not necessarily going to be happy about you all the time.
Beth Dombkowski:
I would imagine not. Yeah.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And they're not necessarily going to be grateful. So, it's like you see people in their worst states sometimes. They're really needing help. And to be compassionate and empathetic to that, and yet also be able to take care of yourself so that you don't burn out, which I experienced in my very first job. I know what that feels like. So, you've got to be resilient and you've got to be empathetic. You've got to love people. It doesn't mean you have to be an extrovert.
Beth Dombkowski:
Okay.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
There are a lot of introvert music therapists. I'm 60/40 extrovert, introvert. But I also know you have to know yourself and know how to take care of yourself. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Beth Dombkowski:
One last question.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Sure.
Beth Dombkowski:
Why Rowan? Why Rowan for you?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Beth Dombkowski:
And why Rowan for any students that might be interested in music therapy?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
I love Rowan seriously and honestly. I feel it's like the perfect size. There's something about being a state school of this size that you've got the infrastructure to support students and give them what they really need in terms of resources, and classrooms, and all that infrastructure stuff. And there's enough of a community, a campus community for stuff to go on. Rowan's got the Osteopathic School and the Cooper Medical School.
Beth Dombkowski:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
So, like Michigan State, my alma mater.
Beth Dombkowski:
Yes.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
It's the only other school in the country that has both.
Beth Dombkowski:
With both of them. Yeah.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Right?
Beth Dombkowski:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
And we're making partnerships with those places to do research and clinical experiences. So, that's something Michigan State never went through with with their program.
Beth Dombkowski:
Really?
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
They dropped their program ten years ago. So, we are the only music therapy program with those advantages. The music department is fantastic.
Beth Dombkowski:
Oh, yeah.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
It's so active and the students are super talented. And they're also a really close knit, supportive community. They really enjoy like being together. They're not hyper competitive or anything like that. And we've got that great music industry program too.
Beth Dombkowski:
Yeah.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Which I appreciate for music therapy because, with that, I hope that our students will get more experience with recording and digital music technology, which is becoming much more important in music therapy. You're working at that side with people recording, and mixing, and doing sampling, and all this stuff, or using iPads, or even developing like interactive digital musical instruments. Like there's so much opportunity for development there. So, I see so much potential at this university. And a lot of cross disciplinary collaboration, psychology, engineering. The vibe here as a faculty member is people are very collaborative. I don't feel everyone is territorial and like, oh, I don't want to work with you. This is my stuff. People are really eager to work together and do really fun, innovative things together, so.
Beth Dombkowski:
Thank you so much for coming to talk to us today, Dr. Hunt.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
My pleasure.
Beth Dombkowski:
And I hope to see you again.
Andrea McGraw Hunt, Ph.D.:
Yes, absolutely.
Beth Dombkowski:
All right. This has been Rowan Confidential.